John Stewart making fun of Glenn Beck's Mistake

I post this with some hesitation. The beginning is a little crude and off color. John Stewart isn't my favorite for this reason. The second half of this, though... priceless. Seriously, gold to me (an alienated-not-republican-in-the-middle-of-Beck-lovin'-utah.)

But after watching This on my very conservative friend Denice's blog (oh my gosh, stitches in my side... but I would never be able to send this to my mother) I realized I'm such a Molly Mormon sometimes about what I post. And then I watched this on Dave's blog, (also very funny, oh my word...) I had to let off a little hubris and make fun of someone that I truly dislike (and I mean, truly...) Glen Beck. I think he has even surpassed Rush in my "change-channel-quickly-whew-that-was-close-I-think-I-might-throw-up" list. So, yeah. Beck made a mistake. And its' funny to me. If it wouldn't be funny to you, please don't watch it and be offended.

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cookie ratings

So a friend of Skywalker's and mine brought by a HUGE bag of chocolate chip cookies last night. We ate several, distributed several to the kids, and now it's sitting on my fridge, and also occupying a corner of my mind.

This morning, I told all the kids they had to finish breakfast before they got their dresses on. Because breakfast was cold cereal, something we have very rarely and is considered a treat, the kids all seemed to have no problem. THey downed their cereal within five minutes. All except MayMay. She's a steady eater, probably my most prolific eater, but she attacks everything with the same measured consideration. She just likes food, ANY food, an feels no need to inhale treats when they're to be enjoyed.

Anyway, the kids all got up and raced up the stairs. MayMay stared after them, then looked at the half-empty bowl in front of her.

"Mom," she said, "I can't finish."

Right. Miss 3-full-bowls-of-oatmeal-every-morning.

"Finish, then you can go upstairs with your sisters and put your dress on."

MayMay looked at me consideringly, then her face crumpled. Whimper, whimper.

I go in my room and shut the door.

Whimper whimper.

I turn on a clip from my friends' blog, it's a funny song by Flight of the Conchords. I chuckle and do my best to keep my blood pressure from rising as I hear footsteps approach my door.

Whimper Whimper, face mooshed up against the slats of the door that seperates my bedroom from the living room. Whimpers getting louder, a little bit of banging on the door.

Me: "Go eat your cereal MayMay, and stop crying because that's a tantrum and tantrum girls go on the time-out bench."

MayMay: Growl-Wail, jumping up and down.

Me: OK! Well I guess you made your choice. (Come out of room. Heft 5-year-old over my shoulder. Chug up the stairs--yes, my duedate is in five days--and set her on the bench. Start to go down the stairs.)

MayMay: I don't WAAAAANT to SIDOWN!!

I look and she's standing next to the time-out bench.

Me: Whoops! Guess it's your room then. Bella, Loli, out... MayMay's going to spend her time out in there.

MayMay: NONONONONO!!! (Yelling, jumping, screaming.)

I put MayMay in the room and shut the door. The handle doesn't work from the inside so she can't get out until I let her out (which has been a very convenient development for me and discipline.) I go down the stairs to to the tune of soulfoul top-of-lungs-screaming. I walk into the kitchen and consider the brown paper bag on top of the fridge.

"I think that was a two-cookie tantrum," I say to myself.

Now that I've blogged about it, I think I might go let her out.

A Feminist Discussion

From this post.

This post was by a guest blogger, and it was on Feminist Mormon Housewives a week or so ago. It was a complaint about a BYU devotional talk by Elder Pace given recently. Here is the original post:

It was with great sadness and disappointment and, I’ll admit, more than a bit of anger that I read Elder Pace’s BYU Devotional talk regarding women’s divine purpose Wednesday morning. I read it with an eye on tonight, when I would attend New Beginnings with my headstrong, smart, articulate 13-year-old daughter. I’ll be honest: when I first saw it, I thought it was a parody, like The Onion for Mormons. But alas, I read about it in several other places, including the Church News, so now I know it was for real.

I go to church every Sunday. I’m the ward organist and the Primary chorister (the world’s greatest calling, hands down). I went to BYU and got married in the temple at age 19 (gasp—what was I thinking?). I have three kids who are so great that I know better than to take credit for anything they are or do. I’m an assistant professor of education. And I wear pants to church. Yep, that’s me in a nutshell.

I’m also a feminist. I want both my girls and my son to grow up believing that men and women can do anything and be anything they want to be. I worry about my girls getting that message because they will not be able to participate in priesthood ordinances (unless you count watching). I worry at least as much about my son understanding that message as well because he will be able to participate in those things. I worry about my daughters because they will have to defer to men while they’re at church. They’ll have to worry about finding a man to babysit a group of adult women at the church building. They’ll have to get approval for their ideas from male leaders.

So here I am, ten minutes after getting home from work, hoping my kids feed themselves dinner in time for us to get to New Beginnings, wondering why today feels more like a continuation of a cycle of uncomfortable messages I’ve received throughout my life about the “divine role of womanhood” (cringe) than like a new beginning. I remember coming home from YW one day when I was about 15 after a lesson on careers. I had volunteered that I wanted to be a concert pianist when I grew up (I was never good enough for that!). One of my friends said she wanted to be a doctor and our YW teacher smiled and said: “That’s great! You’ll be able to administer first aid to your children!” We had a little talk about that over dinner. My dad—wise, diplomatic, un-exciteable, and patient—told me to “rise above the occasion.” And so I laughed it off and carried on.

Then there was the General Conference Sunday when we heard the “Mothers Come Home” talk. I was too young to have paid attention, but I remember the family drama that ensued after one of my sisters at BYU called home in tears. Again, my dad listened patiently and reminded her to rise above the occasion.

Years later, it was my turn to make a tearful phone call home from BYU. One of my religion professors had told us in class that if women worked, they shouldn’t pay tithing on their earnings because it was like gambling proceeds. He actually called it “blood money.” Again, my dad smiled and told me to rise above foolish advice.
Another time, that same professor told us that when we died, Christ himself would personally escort working women to the gates of hell for going against their divine nature. I guess this comment was ridiculous enough that my dad forewent his previous mantras and laughed out loud. Then he told me that if that were true, we’d have to rent a 15-passenger van and the whole family would ride to hell together because all the women in my family are professional women. Another religion professor told us that we didn’t have to listen to what Chieko Okazaki said because “last time I checked, she didn’t have the priesthood.” Sigh.

I could go on. My poor dad has listened to a lot of stories like these. My husband has probably heard even more. Since I don’t see these attitudes towards women enacted in my own family, I am mostly able to rise above the occasion and blow it off as old school. But every once in a while, I see something like this devotional talk and wonder: How do I rise above this occasion? How do I shelve my hopes and dreams for my children and tell them to follow this counsel? How do I tell them that they will be broken or deficient if they don’t marry? I don’t want my daughters to wonder why Heavenly Father has such a limited vision of their potential. Surely Heavenly Father wants women to do more than complete men. I’m a wife. I like my husband. But being a wife doesn’t complete me. My husband doesn’t complete or sanctify or purify me. And I don’t do those things for him, either. It’s just the five of us—my husband, my two girls, my son, and me—and we’re just doing this life thing.

I’m also a mother. Motherhood brings me plenty of joy (and heartache). But it doesn’t complete me. I’m lots of other things, too. I’m a friend, a daughter, a sister, a teacher, a primary chorister, a pianist, a professor, a book aficionado, and I just started guitar lessons! I like to think all those things together complete me.

I want my girls to be strong and of good courage—just like we heard tonight at New Beginnings. I want them to think, like the closing song we sang tonight: “How vast is our purpose, how broad is our mission . . .” I want them to figure out what completes them and go do it—whether that includes marriage or motherhood or not. And I long for the day when the church—and that includes BYU Devotionals, the Church News, General Conference, General Relief Society meetings, General YW Meeting, the Ensign, the New Era, the Friend, and our Sunday lesson manuals and weekly activities—can get on board and join the new beginning that’s happening over here at my house.

P.S. My son is coming along for the ride, too.



Here is my response:

Men say stupid things sometimes. Even though they hold the priesthood. ;)

Having said that.. I went and read through this talk and found nothing that really blatantly made me wince. I thought it was nice. I can see how it might ruffle some feathers… I guess. There was the discussion of marriage as necessary to fulillment (though I’d argue he was talking about men AND women, though his talk was directed at women) and the discussion of women’s “roles” that seems to always stir up trouble.

The thing is… I do think women have certain roles that men don’t have, and vice versa. That might not jive with modern feminist theory, but dang. Modern feminist theory is a product of the world. There’s good and bad in it. I’d be just as worried about someone holding up modern feminist theory and theoreticians as above reproach as I’d be about them holding up a priesthood leader as such.

The author's response:

Although this may be foolish and naive, I’m too stubborn to admit that the world can so easily be divided up into two big categories–women, who have a unique divine purpose, and men–who have a different unique divine purpose. Sure, there’s plenty of research that shows that there are biological differences between men and women. But IMO, the world is so diverse–full of all different kinds of people, all of whom have unique strengths, challenges, limitations, talents, perspectives, etc. If that’s not evidence of the divine, what is? So let’s embrace those differences. Let’s say their names out loud and recognize them, rather than try to squeeze everyone into one of two possible boxes.

FWIW, I agree that modern feminist theory is not above reproach. Any feminist worth his/her salt should be able to admit that. My post didn’t suggest that I thought modern feminist theory was above reproach, did it? If I did, that was an unintended message.

My response:
I don’t necessarily want to accuse you of promoting feminist theory as above reproach. I guess what I’m saying is, I see this a lot: any discussion of the “roles” of men and women is immediately countered by some modern theoretician or piece of “scientific evidence,” etc. Oh, yes, people are so different and diverse. And each different society provides stereotypical roles for men and, and some for women, that are unique to culture and geography and perhaps socioeconomic status.

I think, though, that there are certain, spiritual roles that men and women are primarily responsible for (ie proc on the family) and it makes sense to me, and I don’t see how that’s degrading or anti-feminist. It just is. My stewardship and my husbands are different. You could argue that this mirrors the “seperate but equal” way of thinking that was debunked with the Civil Rights movement, but I don’t think the two situations are all that similar. Biologically, men and women ARE different. Biologically, our drives and processes are different, especially in the face of such things as sexuality and parenting. Why would we be biologically given different purposes and functions, and not spiritually? I think Heavenly Father has beautiful way of mirroring his spiritual creations in the physical. I feel that, as a woman, I have certain roles and stewardships that are primarily my responsibility, and so does my husband (though that doesn’t mean there’s never any crossover.)

Anyway.



So what do you think about these issues? (Gender, Roles, the church, misunderstandings/misinterpretations that can happen on both sides of the discussion.)

Their Story Unfolds--reflections and pictures

THEN



NOW






Do you notice a difference? For me it's harder to see, but everyone tells me how different they look. How MayMay looks "thinner." How Bella is gorgeous and growing.

They are getting so big so fast. I look at those pics of MayMay and I remember the girl who seemed to move and cling like a toddler, who had the squat body and big tummy but those huge, liquid eyes that you just couldn't get away from. Her legs have gotten long, so fast, and muscled. She almost looks like she could be the age she really is (almost six) now. I was looking at my kids the other day, all tangled in a pile playing some game, and was suddenly struck by how beautiful they all were... gorgeous arms and legs, gorgeous faces, healthy bodies. I'm so grateful and it's like watching flowers bloom, seeing these two race from pant-size to pant-size... Bella's pants that she came home in now belong to Jaws (we do have to cuff them a bit) and she can BARELY fit into size five talls now. She and Loli are now the same size... she has caught up with a vengeance. And her top teeth are growing in.

I get little bits, here and there, about my adopted kids and the life they had before they came to America. Usually it's completely random when they start talking about it (for real, not making up imaginary things about Ethiopia being full of unicorns and candy and sparkly bedspreads.)

Today I got a big chunk of past that I didn't have before. I cherish every piece I get, because it brings me more into the world they've lived in. They're my kids. But they're also kids who had a life I knew nothing about.

Today MayMay told me that a little girl at Toukoul taught her some orphanage behaviors that we're currently trying to eradicate (nothing too troubling... just some bad habits.) She told me about this girl and how she was "nice, but bad sometimes," and how she hit sometimes. We talked from there about how MayMay slept on the bottom bunk at Toukoul and Bella on the top.

One thing I kind of missed before... I thought that when we visited they must be washing the linens for the bunkbeds. And then I got a roll of film back that I developed... I sent a disposable camera to Ethiopia before we came to pick them up, and asked the nannies to take some pictures. THere were a couple of pics of the kids sleeping in the bunks, and no. They don't have sheets, pillows or blankets... they all sleep on the bare mattresses. When you think about it, that's not all that shocking; a mattress at all is a huge luxury, and the climate is pretty moderate. But... we just have such a different set of assumptions about what is tolerable, over here.

Then Bella got enthusiastic and told about how her grandma came once to visit the orphanage, and brought "that cute baby" with her. I asked further and found out we were talking about their younger sister, Konjit, who still lives with Grandma in Ethiopia. She talked about how when we came to get them, "I was playing and playing outside and the lady told me to come down and see you and you were there." MayMay told a story then about how Bella got out of bed at Toukoul once in the middle of the night and MayMay "looked and looked and couldn't find Bellarina and then saw her playing with that little car that doesn't go by itself."

Lol. That sure sounds like Bella... she's pretty dang independent. Somtimes it gets her in some trouble.



(one of Bella's silly faces... always gets Loli to bust a gasket)

My girls are so cute. By the way.

And that lead to a discussion about where they lived in Ethiopia before Toukoul (the orphanage.) Bella told me a cute story. She said her mama sent her to school, and she wore a backpack and walked, but MayMay didn't go. She said one time her mama said she coudln't go see her dad, who worked in a store, but she put on her backpack and went anyway. Her mama found her and said she couldn't have a treat from the store.

I don't know if Mama is Grandma (I'm thinking it is) and Dad is Grandpa... it's mixed up but any piece of information is golden for me.

And then we got out the Coffee table book that sits on our piano, of Ethiopia. We went through all the pages and commented. I asked if her house looked like this, or like this... they had cows like this or sheep like this, if they grew vegetables like this. Bella said their house was like this:





And that this looks like her church:



She told me that they went to church in a white dress with a white hat. That's traditional Ethiopian Orthodox religous clothing... the white dress and head covering. We were looking at some of the religious paintings in churches, and Bella said, "That's Mary," pointing at a depiction of Mary and Jesus in the Ethiopian style of paintings that hang in churches. And she told me that the word for Jesus in Ethiopia is "Eskabeer." (? anyone who is reading this post who knows about this should comment and give me more info, because this is so interesting to me.)



We're planning on getting someone to go out to where they're from, which is Bale Robe in Goba province. It's high in the mountains, colder than most other places in Ethiopia, and mostly a rural area with farmers. With a little bit from our tax return this year we're going to get someone to hopefully take some pictures and interview the grandma if she's still living. This is something that we'll have to do carefully because it's kind of discouraged, though they can't do much about it if you take care of these things after the adoption is finalized. We just can't have any contact with the family, is the thing... it's now against the law. We can't give any gifts of communicate with them directly because then people could be accused of child trafficking.

But as we were looking through this coffee table book, the girls kept asking if their grandma was in it, and I kept having to say no. So I think it's about the right time to try to get some pictures, if we can... that they can look at if they want to. And maybe I get some more wonderful glimpses as well, into my childrens' past.

Top Ten Things You Should Never Say to a Pregnant Woman

10) Anything about looking too big or too small. You just can't go right with that.
9) If you're her gynecologist, please do not compliment any part of her body, no matter how innocent it seems to you. It's just creepy to be told your ankles are looking nice and un-swollen by someone you've studiously tried to relegate to purely professional status in your hypersensitively modest universe.
8) Please don't tell any stories about women dying in their sleep/in the emergency room/in the middle of a C-section due to pregnancy related issues.
7) Labor stories are generally comforting and interesting, but not if you're venting about the labor from hell (where they had to stitch you up for an hour and you pushed for seven hours and your transition lasted ten hours) to someone about to give birth within a week or two.
6) Don't come to her house, look around, and offer to help with cleaning.
5) Nothing about "I thought you'd already had your baby" or "shouldn't you be popping about now?" Popping? Who came up with that word? It creates distinctly unpleasant mental images.
4) No sympathetic faces for the woman who confesses she's having her 5th girl-child. Get excited for her... please... please help her get excited to be pulling out all the frills and pink yet another time.
3) As relates to adoption: if you say anything at all along the lines of, "well, you got those two the easy way, and now you're going to have to put up with labor again," please don't get offended if your face gets laughed upon.
2) Don't you dare say anything at all about eating too much chocolate. Particularly if you're a husband-type person.
1) Don't ask if she's ready. Nobody is *ready* for labor and all that follows... and if you want to help her by bringing over casseroles after the baby is born, that's great, but don't stop a heaving, expectant mom with 5 kids in tow who is eye-ing the chapel doors wildly, and attempt to have a 10-minute conversation about casseroles.

And that's all folks.

Wherein I compare my love life to a tasteless reality TV show...

OK... just don't read this. Seriously. It's completely silly.

I have been bed-bound lately. I have bound myself to my bed, because I get sciatic nerves when I sit, and muscle strain when I stand. So Lately it's been lying down a lot, in between tasks. I find that if I follow this regimen I end up being able to do more, actually, than if I'm being constantly active.

What do I do when I'm lying down? Well, read, of course. But sometimes I need to spend time lying down holding kids, and it's kind of hard to read while holding a squirmy, cuddly kid. SO I've been watching more online TV lately than I ever have at any time in my life. I've become a fan of Modern Family and (I am somewhat ashamed to confess) I caught the entire season of The Bachelor. It was my first time. Yes, I was a bachelor virgin. (Somehow that doesn't sound quite right.)

Well, anyway, of course there were all the "scandals" (that I suspect happen every single time, no matter what the guy kept saying about "biggest scandal in bachelor history" with that little trembling lip of his that made me pretty sure he was having a hard time hiding how much he enjoyed it.) There was the girl who got close to one of the producers, there was Ali (who by the way I was rooting for) who had this sobby teary thing because she had to go back to her job, complete with crushed dramatic parting between her and Jake who was at that point giving lots of kisses to four girls instead of 25 so of course he'd fallen in love with her.

(sorry. I use sarcasm as a defense mechanism... I'm still really, really embarrassed that I watched this show.) Anyway, after Ali left I decided of course I was rooting for Tenley, and not Vienna. I hated Vienna. I despised Vienna. She is such a player, Jake! (I shouted silently at the screen while rubbing my 5-year-old's back). She's in this for the competition! She's playing you!

And then when I went to get groceries one day I saw a few tabloid magazines with her picture on it and I was completely brought up short. I had a stunning realization:
I am Vienna.

Yes, yes. Explain. So, when Skywalker and I were dating, he had a few girls after him and a few girls he was interested in. He is, and always has been, a pretty good looking guy (well, I think so at least) but somehow, a few months after he and I met for the first time, he suddenly peaked. I don't know if you know what I'm talking about; when one guy in the ward suddenly is the one a few girls are after? Suddenly, he looks more attractive and is much more charming than anyone had noticed before? I believe it might be called blooming, or something... at least, I know I was a late bloomer. My husband was, too. He bloomed at about 30, in the BYU 7th ward.

The way he tells it, he had just suddenly decided. He hadn't really worked hard at dating before. He'd had a few serious girlfriends, but none of them worked out. His serious relationships were few and far between, with a lot of casual dates in between. For some reason, he just wasn't feeling it. He decided that this year, he had to make it work. Because he was only in the younger singles' ward for another year, he needed to get on it.

So he broke out his trusty palm-pilot (it didn't really quite fit in his palm... they were bigger back then) and made a list. He thought about the ward, and came up with four names. Yours truly happened to be one of them, though with an asterix next to it, which all of you who know me and know our story would understand.

Well, he pursued casual-verging-on-dating relationships with all four women. Quickly one of them was eliminated when she started seriously dating someone else. With three left, Skywalker was having to balance late-night deep discussions of profound topics in 3 different apartments, one of which happened to be up in American Fork. And this isn't even counting the handful of girls who were suddenly interested in him (peaking, remember?) that he... well, he wasn't really interested in, as more than friends. But being a friendly, mellow guy, he also wasn't the type to just come out and say that and so, yeah. He had a lot of stuff going on. Never 25, I don't think, like Jake started out with. But a fair number.

Skwalker and I had issues to address before he could really feel free about considering dating me. And I had issues before I could date him (namely, I had decided to not date until I was 35 and head psychiatrist at a hospital where I'd meet a nice older widower and we'd spend the sunset years of our life together. I kind of saw Loli and I as an episode of Gilmore Girls; we were the only family I needed. That was resolved with the help of a certain bishop who made me see reason whom I will always be grateful for). Skywalker's issue was of course... the kid. Why? How? And... are you OK now? Thanks to Josh, that issue was cleared up and I was a serious contender.

Number three fell out of the running when she accepted an internship in California. So that left me and Anne.

Anne (Names changed to protect the innocent), well, how to describe her. She is like a Disney princess. Beautiful, soft-spoken, mature, faultlessly kind, faultlessly pure. She didn't watch PG 13 movies. She had a master's degree in Social Work. She was a raw vegan and a natural health enthusiast, which matched well with Skywalker. Oh, but that's not all! She had beautiful willowy figure, a stunning smile, gorgeous Amy-Adams eyes, Long, curling hair and a famous mother (a rather well known LDS-singer and television performer) and millionare entrepreneur father. She had a gorgeous disneyish-singing voice, described by some as a mix between Belle and Ariel (she couldn't help it, with her mom being who she was) perfectly suited to soothing, spiritual musical numbers. She was a folk dancer like Skywalker, in fact that is how they met; folk dancing (one of the best experiences and happiest times of Skywalker's life). She spent most of her time caring for her aged grandfather, who loved her dearly, and, like, rescuing cats and feeding orphans and stuff. :) Don't mean to be flippant about it, but... well. Tenley. Anne was Tenley.

And I was Vienna. I was the weird girl that some people in the singles' ward felt uncomfortable around, and one or two expressed to the bishop their concern about... should I even be in the singles ward, if I had a kid? (The technical answer is no, I shouldn't have. How that came about is another long story...)

I know there were a few not-so-nice things said and assumed about me and my circumstance when I joined the singles' ward. I'd had my face in the newspaper too... a couple years before all this happened. Those who knew my story felt better about things, but I had long given up the compulsive need to let everyone in on the extremely personal things that had happened to create my circumstances... it just wasn't any of their business, and I couldn't help it if they judged me.

When I met Skywalker's family, his father warned him about dating me. They LOVED Anne; they met her when Skywalker brought her home for Christmas a couple years before (yes, years...this relationship had been in place for 8 years, she just hadn't been ready to date Skywalker yet, for some reason).

Anne fit in with Skywalker's family seamlessly. She was so much like one of Skywalker's sisters it was almost uncanny, because both of them were uniquely Disney-Princess, Mary Poppins, and Anne of Green Gables-like. I was a little bit more blunt, a little more sarcastic at times... I spoke my mind and disagreed aloud (though, of course, diplomatically. Or at least, I tried.)

I knew Skywalker was choosing between us, and I knew what the logical choice should have been. But my heart wanted to be the one, partly because I loved him already and partly because I believed, somehow, I'd be better for him. I got him to play and joke, and take himself less seriously. Anne, while a wonderful girl, was soooo much like him and his family she'd never really challenge him, and she had some things she hadn't quite resolved in her heart as well, I think. I sort of felt from what Skywalker had said of her and their long relationship that she was kind of settling; Skywalker was a tolerable choice because she felt comfortable around him and loved him and had a history with him, and she was two years older than he was (32 at the time) so her options were starting to thin. These are all my own assumptions, of course. And they're completely presumptuous and inappropriate to be talking about in this blog post. (Oh well, nobody's reading it anyway because I told y'all not to, to begin with.)

And my thought was, Nobody should settle for Skywalker. Nobody. Skywalker was not the kind to be settled for... he was too amazing for that.

And in the end, he decided that, while he loved Anne, there was something missing. And in his own words, his heart was telling him to choose me over all logical conclusions and advice from friends/family/opinions of ward members.

We got married, and things were wonderful and amazing for us, and a bit confusing for some of those who'd watched it happen. Those who knew us well enough were very happy for us, others were left a little bit floored. Her? Why would he choose the one with the kid?

For a while there were one or two girls from that singles' ward who I would run into for verging on a couple years afterward, who still would act odd around me. One of them was a temple volunteer; we were in there for a few different sessions and she couldn't quite look at me.

This got better after a while. And this particular girl did eventually talk to me like a normal person. I think she might have been one of the ones who liked him, and it took a while for the sting to wear off, I guess.

I make Skywalker happy. I know I do. And last night, we went to Anne's wedding and she looks really, really happy too. And I hope that sometime soon we can all get together and be like, friends-couples, because I really do admire and like this girl a whole lot, even though I'm glad Skywalker didn't choose her.

Anyway, Silly reality TV show but it somehow struck a chord for me. So... I am officially a part of Team Vienna, now. You know. When I admit to having watched it at all.

Wow. You made it all the way down here. Well, thanks for reading this ridiculous, pointless vent/piece of utter silliness. So... maybe you all should comment with your own dating stories... make me feel less awkward? yes, I think that would be a good idea. Are you a Vienna or a Tenley (or an Ally or a Gia, for that matter?) Nosurf out.

Church Leaders' Counsel and the role of Personal Revelation

A talk by Elder Oaks, at Harvard Law School, about the principles of following prophets and how they connect to personal revelation.

From the talk:

Some wonder how members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints accept a modern prophet’s teachings to guide their personal lives, something that is unusual in most religious traditions. Our answer to the charge that Latter-day Saints follow their leaders out of “blind obedience” is this same personal revelation. We respect our leaders and presume inspiration in their leadership of the Church and in their teachings. But we are all privileged and encouraged to confirm their teachings by prayerfully seeking and receiving revelatory confirmation directly from God.

I explain this principle by an analogy from the law. We are all familiar with official use of certified copies of legal documents like a death certificate or an honorable discharge from military duty. The official certificate allows such copies to be accepted as if they were originals. This practice is based on the fact that anyone who doubts the authenticity of the certified copy can verify its authenticity by going to the original. So it is with the prophetic revelations of prophets of God. They are the certifying authorities that their teachings or directions are from God. Anyone who doubts this—and all are invited to ask questions about what is true—can verify the authenticity and content of the message by checking it with the Ultimate Source, by personal revelation. As Joseph Smith taught, “We never can comprehend the things of God and of heaven, but by revelation.”[14]



This concept is something that I think is hard for a lot of members to internalize. I think a lot of people actually think that,to take something that the prophet or apostles (or other speakers in general conference) has said or commanded, and then take that to the Lord yourself to get confirmation, is a form of lack of faith or blasphemy or not "sustaining" our prophet or leaders.

Clearly one cannot read what brother Oaks has said above and still maintain that we are expected to follow the prophets blindly, and that blind obedience will cover any manner of evils that may come from following against our own consciences or uncomfortable feelings. The Lord expects us to Ask when we aren't sure. He wants us to come to him if we are having difficulty understanding a commandment.

Of course (and Skywalker always emphasizes this when we have discussions about prophets' counsel and personal revelation) you have to really Ask. You shouldn't be asking with the attitude of "this can't be true. Give me a different answer or... (I'll leave the church, I won't believe in personal revelation any more etc etc.) " You have to really be ready (and perhaps even expect) that the prophet's counsel will be confirmed by your own personal revelation.

I've had experiences that have made me so confused in the past... I used to believe in blind obedience. I don't think I would have said, back then, that I believed in blind obedience. But when a priesthood leader's counsel conflicted with my own, powerful (and unexpected) personal revelation, I was thrown. At first I thought (I actually thought this) of course the leader's revelation trumps my own. But then I realized... no, actually. With my husband spiritually incapacitated at the time, I was the steward of my family, someone who, clearly, Heavenly Father would counsel in making important decisions. And I had received some very clear revelation. To deny what I felt as possibly false or my own imagination was also to deny anything I had ever received by revelation... including my testimony of the gospel, of the book of Mormon, and of (ironically) prophets' and priesthood leaders' authority and counsel coming from Heavenly Father.

I realized, in my situation, that Heavenly Father had given me an answer. For some reason, whether through his own imperfections or because of his situation or whatever it was (it wasn't my place to judge why), my priesthood leader hadn't received that answer yet. But I HAD, and I was responsible for the information I had received, and the consequences that would come if I did not follow God's will.

It's a tough spot to be in. But I came away from the experience with a lot that I didn't have before... a better knowledge of how God actually works with me. He will give me answers if I want them. It's true that there are situations where faith needs to come before knowledge. But in that case, that's the answer you'd get when you pray... "Have faith, [Nosurfgirl] and do what My Prophet has asked." And the peace that would come along with that answer would allay any fear and doubt until understanding came.

Anyway, that's my spiel... and this whole issue, I have realized, is a big part of why I am the way I am now, to a certain degree. And I have to say that I have gained a lot more real respect for prophets and priesthood leaders in the wake of understanding this. God, through his infinite grace and mercy, allows imperfect people to be His mouthpieces. And through His mercy He can pour out His spirit and counsel through them. Most of the time I find that, in the moment the prophet or leader speaks, I feel the Spirit confirming to me that the words spoken are true, so... no need to ask.

But it is still up to us, to get answers, when we aren't sure.

Anyway... a forum for discussion. I loved Elder Oaks' talk. Go read all of it... very powerful and very enlightening.