Pictures of Pornography: Part I of an interview with Jodi Hildebrandt

Jodi Hildebrandt manages Utah County's chapter of Lifestar. This is a program and network designed to help sexual addicts through recovery. She is a member of the LDS church and comes highly recommended. If you or a loved one is struggling, I suggest you go check out the network as one of your resources. There is help for those with an addiction, and also for those who have a loved one who is struggling.


Interview with Jodi Hildebrandt

NSG: Speaking from an LDS perspective, as a therapist who has worked with lots of LDS people who have dealt with pornography, when would you say someone needs to go to the bishop with their problem? If they have a recurring problem? If they look at it once?

JH: Well, when we’re looking at pornography, we don’t feel bad. But after we look at pornography we go, uh oh,

NSG: Mm hmm.

JH: We shouldn’t have done that. So after I’ve done it once or twice, probably I’d say to myself, oh, I don’t think it’s such a big deal, I think I’ll stop. I start realizing that I can’t stop, or I don’t want to stop. So you say, when should they go? They should go the first time. But they don’t go the first time, because they feel shame. They end up going after they realize that, this feels out of control, I’m having life-changing consequences, and it’s increased, which means, addiction increases in tolerance. And so… the three components of addiction is that it alters my mood, it increases in rate, frequency and duration, and that I have life-damaging consequences. Or I have… my life becomes unmaneagable… my wife is…. More… feels like she’s more irritable toward me. Or, maybe I miss work because I looked at pornography at night and I couldn’t get up in the morning to go to my job. So I start having consequences as a result of what I’m doing. I don’t come home when I’m supposed to. I start lying to my spouse. I mean, those are all consequences of misbehavior. So when people get to that stage, they usually start looking for help. And when they usually get to me… I mean, they usually go to a bishop then, but they usually end up coming to me when their life is like in the gutter. Where they say, “My wife’s leaving me,” um, “people hate me, I lost my job,” you know, something significant has happened to them, usually.

NSG: Right…

JH: Where there’s been, exceeding, conflict in the marriage; where the wife says, something’s wrong, I don’t know what it is, but I’m making him in here and he’s coming in.

NSG: Yeah… I can see that. (laughs).

JH: Yeah. People change, when they are humble and they want… they realize what they’re doing is causing a problem. When the wife pulls a husband in or vice versa, when a husband pulls a wife in, usually don’t see much change because a person is resisting.

NSG: Right.

JH: They don’t want to change. And so they play this little game, you know “I’ll come, but just to appease you.”

NSG: Right.

JH: And you know, that doesn’t really work. It just wastes their time and money.

NSG: And I’m sure.. you said Shame. Shame was the motivation…

JH: Shame is the core.

NSG: What do you think can help somebody decide… like for instance, I’m sure shame would be an essential element of somebody who has looked at it once, who should go to their bishop, but decide, you know, I, don’t want to see the bishop. How do you overcome that? How do you, go ahead and go? How do you… a piece of me wants to make sure people realize that, it’s not something that makes them a bad person. If they’ve looked at it once.

JH: Mm hmm.

NSG: you know, we should talk to someone about it but it doesn’t make ‘em a bad person.

JH: We can talk spiritually. Shame is coming right from the Adversary. The Adversary is saying, “Don’t tell. You did do something wrong, you’re a scumbag. Don’t tell anybody.” You know, you’re worthless. “Who’d do something like that, cheat on their spouse like that?” When I look at pornography, and I know that I did something wrong I validated that belief system, that internal structure. So I already did something bad, and then I’ve got this voice, telling me, “don’t tell.” Because shame drives on two things. Secrets is one. If I’ve done something that I know is wrong and it violates me, then I feel badly. But then when I feel shame it tells me, “Don’t tell anybody.” It likes hiding out in the dark. It doesn’t like the light. Well if I go and talk to a bishop that means there’s a spotlight on it, and so I don’t want to tell, I just won’t do it again. Well, that’s the worst thing you could do, is not to tell. Because if you don’t tell, you still have all that shame inside. It’s a secret that you’re holding. So you have to keep lying about it. And shame begets more shame, and so there’s this cycle of addiction, where I say I’ll never do it again. Well the reason I have an addiction is to help me get away from how bad I feel already, so I engage in it again because I want to get away from how bad I feel, and then I feel worse, and then I have to go do it again. I mean it just goes round and round and round. And people don’t see that. They just think they’re out of control. They say, well I am a smart person, I don’t know why I can’t stop. They can’t stop because they have, an addiction.

NSG: Right, Um, it’s kind of ironic to me, just having talked to this bishop and talked to you, and… all these other people, um, it’s such a common, problem. It happens to just about everybody. And so there should be a way that people can know that, it’s not the end of the world if you go talk to someone about it. I mean, it’s not… doesn’t mean I’m a bad person, doesn’t mean I’m a disgusting person, it means I’m a normal person, who… who did that. Who’s normal and sexual. I mean, I messed up maybe but, that doesn’t make me a bad person.

JH: Right. They don’t know that, because their shame tells them they’re bad. And when they hold it as a secret, then they don’t tell anybody. And so they never have the opportunity for someone to tell them that, this doesn’t mean that. So.. they’re scared to. And that’s exactly where it wants you to be. It wants you to stay silent, and it wants you to feel horrible. And so the more that you keep violating yourself, whether you’re violating yourself by pornography, or masturbating, or lying, or being deceitful in some way, or accusing or blaming; whatever you’re doing, you’re just exacerbating the shame you feel.

NSG: Well that really… that says a lot I think. Especially with LDS people, I think that a lot us are really prone to shame.

JH: Right, we are.

NSG: Because a lot of us feel like we need to lead these perfect lives, and if we mess up at all… I mean, our kids always have to be perfect, and we always have to fulfill our callings perfectly, and we can’t miss a meeting, you know, and so I think that can lend itself to shame.

JH: Right, any sort of structure… it’s not just Mormonism, I think it can be any dogmatic religion, it’s going to have more a propensity to increase shame, because the expectations are higher. But the expectations aren’t inappropriate, I mean we all can live good lives, and if we live the way we’re being asked to live then we’ll be happy. But if we live what you just described, that perfect… nobody’s going to be perfect! That’s US. Literally our own shame. Because shame talks like that: be perfect. Because it knows you can’t be perfect, and if you expect to be perfect then you’re going to fall from it. And it’s a setup.

NSG: Because nobody really is perfect… that creates that discrepancy.